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10/28/2011 12:14:00 PM
I really think that people do not consider all the things you need to own a pet. Whether it is a hamster, rabbit, guinea pig, it takes a lot of effort and some money in order to provide the pet with the proper care it needs. Most kids do not understand the importance of taking care of pets so it is the parent that needs to be responsible for teaching them the right ways of doing things.
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BOB2 10/27/2010 10:40:00 PM
Lots of things reported as "facts" that aren't? Lot's of assertions about this poor EIS? This single project will remove 1/2 per cent of our regional traffic-does this writer even know what our VMT is, and how massive that reduction is? We do need to spend more on other areas, and on other improvements, too. As a State we invest about 20% of the real per capita amount on new transport infrastructure that we did in the 60's, and it shows. But, questionable reporting pandering to fringe elements of the left and right do not make "facts", out of some of your or your sources dubious assertions.
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Billsocal 10/18/2010 10:26:00 PM
It is all part of a bigger plan. UN Agenda 21 and the Livable Communities Act (SB1619). They both want the people to move into the downtown metro areas and live in high rise apartment buildings.
This has been going on for years and completely under the radar. Why do you think LAUSD built the $600 Million dollar RFK high school where they did. UN Agenda 21 and the Livable Communities Act. Go to youtube and do a search on UN Agenda 21 and watch and learn.
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Joey 10/08/2010 4:49:00 PM
I think Jane Jacobs is spinning in her grave.
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Dino 10/03/2010 11:00:00 AM
The comments were so much better than the article. I am glad that there has been such a strong demand by the people to build rail systems in LA. It was not at all like that 40 years or so when the voters shot down several proposals to build a rail transit system. It wasn't the tire companies or big oil that thwarted the proposed project-it was the mentality of the voters that is contained in this article that was so popular back then. So keep the faith, it will get done as long as you speak up and vote for more projects, and vote against politicians like Antonovich who have always done everything in their power to stop rail transit.
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Jim 10/03/2010 10:05:00 AM
It's ironic how this publication tries so hard to be urban and hip, yet at the same time seems to devote every other issue to bemoaning the fact that L.A. is losing its resemblance to a nondescript Midwestern burg. It often seems to me they should simply move, lock, stock, and barrel to Bakersfield or Fresno, since that seems to represent the kind of cityscape and infrastructure they want: No expensive rapid transit, and no tall buildings.
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mike 10/03/2010 8:49:00 AM
The next generation of people are not buying cars. Check the latest news on the car industry trying to sell cars to them. These are the people who will be riding this subway. I wonder if the study took into account their changing minds. Many of these people feel cars are a waste.
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Tarry Calroi 10/03/2010 12:33:00 AM
Rip off? How the hell is this a rip off? I agree the damn thing is too expensive, but it still needs to happen. I couldn't care less about the traffic congestion, I want an alternative! I am sick of being forced to drive!
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Los Angeleno 10/01/2010 12:16:00 AM
"Road capacity is always a good buy" Right. This is such a shortsighted view. Investing in LA's subway system is investing in this city's future. Peak oil is not a joke & LA's infamous dependance on automobiles is already becoming a liability. All the other great cities of the world have decent subway systems. They connect communities, cut down on pollution, encourage tourism, and a healthier lifestyle of walking, street life, and fully experiencing the city and other people, which you can't do isolated & enclosed in an automobile. LA is not going to have an amazing subway system overnight, and people are not automatically going to abandon their cars to take the rail, but this is a great step in the right direction and the right thing to do for future generations of Los Angelenos.
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Norm 09/29/2010 6:09:00 PM
So many people have said it so quickly and so well that I hardly need to chime in, but if a journalist is so hard up for a soundbite that they have to go to John Walsh for a quote, their story is not worth reading. The erratic and confrontational man is very anti-subway for someone with whom I've ridden the subway on multiple occasions. LAWeekly - you can and should do better. The people of LA County approved the Measure R sales tax by more than a 2/3 majority. Any decent reporting/editorial staff could have reached 66% of public officials and advocates for fair and balanced soundbites without leaving their desk. Lucky for you, prostitutes and pot dispensaries need somewhere to advertise. Journalists apparently are no longer needed.
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tony 09/29/2010 3:34:00 AM
What this article fails to deliver is that a POLITICAL force led by oil, rubber and auto industries ruined our beautiful and efficient mass transit system. How funny that the author implies that some political force is trying to put it back. LOL.
If we had been modernizing and improving that system over the last 50 years we would have a transit system and transit culture that the world would envy instead of the other way around.
I will NEVER use the bus in Los Angeles. I've done it and I hate it. I hate buses in just about anywhere in the world I've bused them.
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James McCuen 09/28/2010 11:03:00 AM
Actually the EIR admits the shortcomings. More importantly the linking of high-density development surrounding subway stations does not add up to the chronic water shortage that we face - The City of LA (and County MTA) are giving contradicting messages to the public.
As usual, this will serve to enrichen multinational corporations such as Siemens, A&E firms, Law Offices, etc while sacrificing the bus riders.
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James McMath 09/28/2010 5:50:00 AM
Regardless one's view on the Subway to the Sea this article is full of omissions and inaccuracies. Piss poor journalism at its best. Pathetic.
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Smith 09/28/2010 1:35:00 AM
Why am I reading this in a weekly and not the Big Paper in town?
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James 09/27/2010 11:38:00 PM
I'm disappointed in your coverage and its seeming partiality to the motor industry and allied road constructing interests. More lanes are the way to go because of Angelenos' love of their cars? This path of least resistance approach is disheartening not to mention destructive of the little left that's good in this megalopolis in its ultimate outcome, and it's not going to speed things up, only, barely, accomodate, more road hogs as they spawn. The 405 widening project is something I know intimately, crawling along it every day as I do. Apart from rebuilding bridges in need of repair, its only virtue, it's gouging what remains of the landscape and kicking the bottleneck a few miles further down the road. It's positive impact will be minimal, the same under one percent you quote for the purle line,, I'm sure...and it's for a very bad cause. Straphangers unite! As an ex New Yorker, I can only encourage citizens to take the train if you're lucky enough to have one passing by.
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Peter 09/27/2010 11:19:00 PM
This has got to be one of the most ignorant articles I've read in the LA Weekly. Every major modern metropolitan city in the world has a significant amount of traffic AND a proper subway system. Imagine how bad it would be to get around Manhattan, London, Rome, Paris, and Tokyo if they didn't have a subway.
For a full and comprehensive rebuttal from the Metro go to the following link and get the other side with real facts:
http://thesource.metro.net/2010/09/24/metro-responds-to-la-weeklys-subway-ripoff-story/
Here are my personal thoughts...It is embarrassing that Los Angeles is way behind the leading cities of the world for good public transportation options. Maybe the author and other haters need to visit these major cities to see how easy and cheap it is to get around without renting a car.
Think about the fact that there will be less drunk driving due to a proper subway system? (Again, if you visit other cities you will see that people who drink prefer subway over buses) What about easier access for elderly people to travel by subway rather than trying to drive? With the baby boomer generation getting older this will be a major concern for safety which buses cannot fill.
For those short-sighted people who say that people still need to drive to stations and that parking will be an issue, I partially agree but you're not realizing a few things: 1. people in LA are using bicycles more and if bike lanes are created to stations this will make it even more popular (this is especially pertains to those dangerous 16 to 21 year old drivers which makes the roads safer for the rest of us) 2. Metro can coordinate bus lines and even create new ones that specifically cater to subway users 3. taxis can fill the rest of the void (And for those who gawk at taxi prices just think about how much you pay to park your car in a lot or even now on the street with the new pricier and extended parking meters. Or how about that parking fine you get probably once or twice a year? Would you rather pay the parking meter guy $40 when he catches you because you left your car 1 minute too long?) One other thing, if you think about how much you spend on your car per year for loan payment, maintenance, gas and insurance then paying a few bucks for a taxi instead makes financial sense.
Is this subway going to magically make traffic disappear and make LA a utopia for traveling? Of course not, nothing will do that. But is it going to hedge against the eventual population growth of the city and make getting around this expansive city a bit easier, cheaper, and safer? Yes.
Oh and by the way LA Weekly, I've decided to boycott your magazine for printing such a one sided and ill informed article. You used to be better than this...
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Steve Hymon 09/27/2010 10:47:00 PM
Metro's response to this article:
http://thesource.metro.net/?p=12459
Steve Hymon
Editor, The Source
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Rob Nesbitt 09/27/2010 8:44:00 PM
Perhaps I missed it, but no one seems to have addressed the intangible positive effect of improving the quality of life in L.A. with mass transit, that is interconnecting people one-to-one. The automobile and the suburbanization of L.A. have destroyed aspects of our culture by alienating us from each other. Mass transit, by getting us out of our steel (and plastic!) boxes frees us to interact with others both on the modes of transit and outside by making people-friendly businesses and homes near the transit stops, i.e., Starbucks, etc. I have been in industrial and real estate sales most of my life, and now that I am semi-retired I enjoy living in a loft Downtown and using mass transit as much as possible. How wonderful it is to not have to drive everywhere.
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Roberto Velazquez 09/27/2010 5:31:00 AM
Listen boneheads, NOTHING will eliminate traffic congestion in a large metropolitan area like Los Angeles. The nature of automobile travel is that traffic jams and bottlenecks occur due to accidents, rubbernecking, human nature, and just plain too many cars out on the roads. Our city passed the breaking point a long, long time ago.
What exactly do people think is going to relieve congestion? Freeway widening? Can you give an example of a Los Angeles basin freeway that was widened and then became free-flowing during rush hour? The 405 is already pretty much as wide as a freeway would possibly get, and it is notorious for being L.A.'s biggest involuntary parking lot.
What a subway system DOES provide is an alternative to the gridlock. New York, Paris, London and Tokyo all have horrendous rush-hour bottlenecks (no, their subways did not eliminate congestion), but at least the residents in those cities have an option to sail smoothly underneath the street level madness if they so desire. This is something that Los Angeles sorely lacks, and it also explains the huge swaths of town that are completely devoid of street life or small businesses.
And why are we still quoting James Moore? Isn't he the guy from 20 years ago that claimed that the Blue Line was going to become an expensive "ghost train" running between Downtown and Long Beach devoid of passengers? (The Blue Line has since become the busiest light rail line in the NATION.) Methinks journalists get in the habit of calling the same old hacks year after year in an attempt to present a "balanced story" on any topic, regardless of the credibility of these individuals. Clean out your Rolodexes, folks.
Most of the people doing the majority of the complaining seem to be those sedentary types living in far-flung suburbs that have no intention of giving up the SUV no matter what. Please don't let them prevent the city from doing the right thing. Creating other alternatives to travel across the basin (something pretty much any other world-class city on the planet has already done) is essential for the future quality of life in Los Angeles. And to the skeptics: the days of free-flowing freeways in L.A. are over, deal with it.
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Jim 09/27/2010 12:24:00 AM
To comment further on Walter's post: His idea of underground garages and new bus rights of way would entail countless street closures and compounded traffic issues during construction. The completed system might work pretty well at that--but only after untold sums have gone out for the rights of way. The constant noise and disruption of above-ground demolition and construction would be intolerable. With a clear right of way, buses might work as well as a train, but then if we have the ROW, then why wouldn't we want the train instead?
Also I have to wonder why some people seem so desperate that whatever transit solution we use should burn fossil fuel and runs on rubber tires?
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JIm 09/27/2010 12:16:00 AM
The stand of the 'alternative' papers with respect to the realities of urban life baffle me. The fact that they don't want "Manhattanization" is moot; we already have Manhattan-like traffic density along major arteries. They don't want "densification", but we already have it, because of population growth. They despise billboards, yet continue to exalt the low-rise cityscape that makes L.A. such a fertile ground for them.
To commentator Walter Moore above, yours and similar arguments completely nonplus me. Have you actually been anywhere between Santa Monica and Downtown on a weekday, in the last 20 years? I can't imagine that you have think that merely fiddling around with buses is the answer. It is, I suppose, if you don't believe in mass transit, except for poor people. We all know being poor is supposed to suck, so why should public transit be more than barely adequate for anyone?
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john riehle 09/26/2010 8:20:00 PM
Let me see if I understand the logic: Feature articles on Elvira are convenient and popular. Ads for massage parlors, escorts and sex clubs are convenient and popular. Bashing public employee unions and municipally-owned power companies is convenient and popular. Cars are convenient and popular. Suburban single-family homes are convenient and popular. Plastic bags are convenient and popular. McDonalds' hamburgers are convenient and popular. Revenge for 9/11 was convenient and popular. Fox News is convenient and popular. Glenn Beck is convenient and popular. Now I understand. Its all good.
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Lauren Cole 09/26/2010 5:46:00 AM
I agree with all of the previous comments that point out that this article misses the point. Traffic is going to keep getting worse whether we build a subway or not. But the subway gives those of us who either work or live on the Westside an alternative to sitting in traffic in a car or a bus. Not everyone will be able to use it, but the Wilshire corridor is as dense a live/work area as just about anywhere in the county so this project helps the most people out. Lots of train and rail projects have been built for other areas, but not along Wilshire. I only wish it had been built years ago, and hope that it is only another 10 years and that we find funds to get it all the way to 4th street.
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Joe Markowitz 09/26/2010 12:51:00 AM
This is how the subway reduces congestion: While drivers are crawling down the Hollywood Freeway in frustration, not only getting to your destination very slowly but in the process gobbling up the city's most valuable real estate, spreading noxious fumes that are making children sick, and contributing to global warming, I am zipping by underneath you on the Red Line. As a result, congestion is not a factor for those of us who actually ride the subway. We smile to ourselves while others complain about traffic, thinking smugly, "you fools, you are complaining about a problem that you yourselves are causing."
The problem with your story is that you are only looking at the problem from the point of view of drivers. And drivers are always going to expand to fill all of the available road space we give them. If we increase road capacity, as your article seems to advocate, all we are doing is contributing to sprawl, to pollution, and ultimately to creating even more traffic. If we create bus lanes (which could be part of the solution), we are not doing much to reduce congestion either, because buses and cars compete for space on the roads. But if we build subway tunnels, we are creating a resource that could last for hundreds of years (subway tunnels in New York City built more than a century ago are still carrying millions of riders), and that will undoubtedly reduce congestion at least for the people who are riding the subways--the people you should be giving at least a bit of attention to--as well as allowing all of us to consume less land, to create less pollution, to breathe cleaner air, and in general to live in a much more pleasant environment.
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Brigham Yen 09/26/2010 12:14:00 AM
Again and again and again: Mass transit is not here to solve our congestion woes as the public have been misled to believe (that's peak oil's job!). Mass transit is meant to provide an alternative to driving and liberating society from the ...ills and conflicts created by limitations inherent to the auto-centric paradigm.
Has anyone ever wondered when the parking headache will ever end? Countless businesses, including restaurants and retail shops, are prevented from opening quickly because part of the red tape is satisfying the ridiculous parking requirements that most areas of LA County still enforce.
The only way to FREE people from all that headache of driving, traffic, congestion, parking, not finding parking, tickets, moving violations, drunk driving, etc. etc. is to provide AN ALTERNATIVE to driving.
The LA Weekly is clueless and probably has no idea that Wilshire Blvd. has about 33% of all office space in Southern California (a total including OC and the IE) - approximately 100 million square feet out of 300 million square feet total. As a transit/urban planner, it makes absolute perfect sense to build a subway down the most dense thoroughfare in LA.
I am extremely disappointed in the LA Weekly and hope that the editor gets fired for this.
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Joel 09/25/2010 11:46:00 PM
The subway is being attacked by a small number of anti-city partisans who are trying to stir up a âtea partyâ style revolt. The LA Weekly is picking up the story because its whole angle is being anti-City Hall.
The truth is, most of the arguments against the subway are based on a mix of untruths and opinions. The subway is not going to cure traffic, nor is it going to prevent you from driving your car. Yes, it will cost money, just like almost everything of value costs money. That money will create tens of thousands of jobs, and to me that is worth an awful lot.
The subway will not prevent anybody from enjoying the sunny L.A. climate. It will free a lot of people up from sitting in traffic. And during rush hour, it will get you across town faster than any other mode of transportation, other than helicopter.
There are thousands of people and many organizations who have worked very hard for many years to support this subway. These include transit advocates, environmentalists, and urban planners. We canât afford for the subway to be delayed for another two decades. Not again.
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Greg Nunlee 09/25/2010 10:20:00 PM
Subway to the Sea
It's very disappointing that a progressive newspaper like LA Weekly would not stand behind extending the Subway to the Sea. When will denizens of LA get out of their cars and start riding the subway? When, finding a parking space in the city takes 1 ½ hours, when you must pay the equivalent of rent to park your car in the city, when traffic is worse then some Third World country standards, and when some parts of the city prohibit cars (as is in parts of NY Time Square). Many of these conditions already exist in Manhattan where the subway is an essential form of transportation. Let's build the transportation infrastructure first and when conditions are unbearable on the highways and byways of LA, only then will people abandon their cars for a cleaner, safer more efficient form of transportation. Lets not rely on studies from professors at universities trying to make names for themselves. At one time in history Los Angeles had more light rail then any city in the nation. MTA is trying to return our great city to Halcyon Days of old, when Los Angeles was a world class metropolis.
Greg Nunlee
Leimert Park
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Paul Kakazu 09/25/2010 12:57:00 PM
The Subway to the Sea is not going to reduce road traffic a bit, but that's just a narrow aspect of a wider picture. What's really important is that many more people will be able to enjoy a tolerable commute because our total transportation capacity will have been expanded. And those of us who have no ideological hang-ups about using collective transport may be able to reach our destinations faster. So who cares if automobile-miles remain the same, because total passenger-miles from all travel modes will jump.
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Greg K 09/25/2010 7:54:00 AM
If there was a subway to Westwood, I would use it. But another part of me wonders...could that 6 billion dollars of subway money be better used on subways and light rail located somewhere else in the L.A. metro area? The subway should be built where the city is going to grow - places where the residents won't fight density. I think the existing Red Line is brilliant in that regard. Perhaps extending the subway south - further down Vermont, and north - further into the Valley, and east, to Miracle Mile and the Media District would be better ways to help Los Angeles grow. I don't see a lot of future density along most of the proposed Purple Line route. I do see a lot of single family homes in neighborhoods protected by zoning.
It's a long tunnel to the Westside, and maybe an above-ground train down the middle of the 10 or Venice or Olympic Blvd. would be a much better way to accomplish the objective of linking Westwood to Downtown. Or perhaps the Expo line should have been built completely grade-separated, and the stations should have been designed for longer trains and express tracks.
On another note, I find it incredible that the LA Weekly concentrates on fighting what will be a very successful (if overpriced) rail line, while largely ignoring the absurdity of the $2 billion about to be spent to extend the Gold Line to nowhere, north San Gabriel Valley, and nowhere, south San Gabriel Valley.
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brad 09/25/2010 7:37:00 AM
opponents of this rail have no vision of the future! this is simply the first of many steps to alleviate congestion for commuters in los angeles. the population is exploding. people will no longer be able to drive a car to the downtown area from the beach. in 10 years, the only way to get to the beach from downtown, the valley, etc; will be on a bike or by train. there will be no parking or oil. fat ass loud mouths like james moore are not experts. in fact, one group which stands to benefit most from this train expansion are students and staff of usc. moore needs to learn more!
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Fisel Caranda 09/25/2010 6:51:00 AM
James Moore works for the auto, oil and realestate industries - he has made a career of arguing against rail and making sure most people have no choice but to keep driving. He works for the reason foundation - a right wing political hack tank backed by the auto, oil and real estate industries
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Marc 09/25/2010 6:13:00 AM
Also, if you want to read a rebuttal to this nonsense that contains actual facts, go here http://thesource.metro.net/2010/09/24/metro-responds-to-la-weeklys-subway-ripoff-story/#more-12459
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Marc 09/25/2010 6:11:00 AM
I think he is absolutely right. Why on earth would anyone want to be able to travel from Westwood to downtown in less than 30 minutes, when we can sit in traffic for 2 hours on Wilshire? I know, let's quadruple deck the freeways! That'll solve all our problems!!!
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StevieB 09/25/2010 2:45:00 AM
Advocating more buses over rail is ridiculous. Buses are incredibly slow crawling to the west side at 15mph. A subway ride from downtown to UCLA will take half the time as a bus. A subway can move more people at a reasonable speed. Living or working near a subway station will increase mobility throughout the county by connecting to the increasingly growing transportation network. By connecting to planned High Speed Rail at Union Station mobility is increased throughout the entire state of California.
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Yuri 09/25/2010 1:16:00 AM
This is a clear hit piece on rail transit. I sense the automobile/bus lobby is feeling threatened because LA County is on its way to recreating its rail transit network. The auto/bus lobby successfully buried the interurban and streetcar lines in the 1950s but people in Los Angeles can now see that their promises of rapid transportation in gasoline and diesel fueled vehicles transformed into smog and gridlock. Let's hope the voters remain wise to not unquestioningly follow one agenda. It's always better urban policy to diversify your transportation options.
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John 09/25/2010 12:34:00 AM
I encourage you all to write the editor of the LA Weekly and personally email Mr. Moore at jmoore@usc.edu to express your disappointment.
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Sameer 09/25/2010 12:06:00 AM
I'm honestly really disappointed at the fact that the LAWeekly would publish this. I used to think this was a really forward-thinking publication that cared about making a change in LA.
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Erik G. 09/24/2010 10:09:00 PM
Who cares about the car addicts? I don't need to travel with a two-ton metal cage and three empty seats, so why am I forced to sit in the tragedy of the commons created by those who "must". As for eathquakes, ask the Japanese or BART. The last place I'd want to be is on the surface near crumbling walls or up on an elevated structure. Remember the Nimitz!
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Ellen 09/24/2010 8:42:00 PM
I think the best argument for the subway is that my time and peace of mind are valuable commodities. I'd rather be zipping to my destination anywhere in the County viz subway than stewing in a traffic jam when 3 million more people are on LA County roads in 20 years.
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Anonymous 09/24/2010 8:37:00 PM
Is this the LA Weekly or Car Weekly? I'm not sure the writers are too knowledgeable or even concerned about viable alternative options. It's important to diversify our travel options to make sure we are not so dependent on one mode.
"...the $9 billion...should go to county road-capacity projects put off for decades, extensive bus lines to bring the region into the 21st century, and scores of less glitzy projects."
First off, road-capacity projects do not address congestion in the long term. One only needs to look to our neighbors in Orange County who completed the Orange Crush several years ago and are again now looking to expand again. Why? It's called induced demand, as a user pointed out earlier. Opportunistic drivers will simply fill in the void of the excess capacity. Former carpoolers will see no benefit in carpooling and drive solo again, etc.
The bottom line is that the current land use policy of designing everything around the automobile is unsustainable. They are the most inefficient use of space for transportation. Why should someone who lives car free have to subsidize a mandated parking structure for a development? Pass that cost along to the car user and then the James Moore folks will see the true cost of driving and the externalities forced onto others.
One only needs to look at this picture to see how inefficient cars are compared to alternative modes of transportation: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_C-DGebIJaNM/S6_NMD8eV8I/AAAAAAAABGo/O6KQbiiEsUQ/s1600/car-bus-bike2.jpg
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Drew Reed 09/24/2010 8:01:00 PM
Thank goodness I read some of the comments to this article. Sad to see that the authors are making a conscious effort to misinform the public, spouting bogus inflated figures when they know how much the subway is really going to cost. But it's good to know that the citizens of Los Angeles are smart enough not to fall for this disgusting propaganda piece.
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Numan Parada 09/24/2010 7:40:00 PM
As many of us are here, I too am disappointed with this LA Weekly article. They have been a great service in the past in exposing many of Metro's faults. This invective piece, however, has done the paper a disservice to itself and its readers.
By mentioning that the subway would hardly reduce congestion on the Westside, the article makes its intent known: That it only cares about the viewpoint of the automobile driver. What about the people who are already using transit, wish to do so, or at least want to avoid having to drive to the area? The so-called Rapid Buses on Wilshire Blvd. can take as much as an hour to reach from Western Ave. to Westwood; yet these buses are already transporting tens of thousands of people to their destinations everyday. The subway would take about 25 minutes, and that's WITH a swing to Century City. The subway would come out a winner... for transit users. Note that you say that the subway would reduce congestion by less than one percent. Growth will come to the Westside with or without the subway. How much do you imagine that congestion will grow if the subway isn't built during that time, as though the current situation isn't bad enough?
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Richard 09/24/2010 6:22:00 PM
Before the Red Line, RTD buses had 4 minute times between buses. After, that was increased to 8 minutes. A subway continued to the sea will reduce how many more buses, and speed up traffic flow with less buses weaving in and out to make stops?
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r 09/24/2010 1:44:00 PM
build the subway. make it an elevated train if methane and earthquakes are such a concern. at least the option of taking a train would exist. study or no study, if us angelenos can't be bothered to use it, it'd be our own stupid fault and we'd deserve to get fat day by day, drowning in our physical inertia, smog and congestion.
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Alessio 09/24/2010 9:17:00 AM
You got to give it to Cox and Moore for arguing against mass transit in favor of roads. You know, it takes some balls to come out against infrastructure that been proven to save energy, reduce sprawl, increase centralized development, raise the standard of living, ... the list goes on and on. Why do they have balls? To come out publicly and prove to everyone in black-and-white that you are a self-centered MORON is not something that comes lightly. Well, then again, maybe if you are a moron, you never realize this.
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Adam Smith 09/24/2010 7:37:00 AM
Never mind the increased development that the subway allows. Manhattan is mentioned. But the subway had to come first, to allow that kind of density. Already we are seeing increased density along the routes being constructed. One could argue that a lot of the resurgence in Hollywood is due to the Red Line going down the boulevard. Office buildings that stood empty for decades near Wilshire/Vermont are being reoccupied.
Another point is that with rail, the more you build, the more useful it all becomes. The Downtown Connector will make it possible to go from Long Beach to Claremont when it is done. Extending the Purple line will increase ridership throughout the system.
Mass transit increases density and commercial activity, but does this article account for the increased taxes that will be collected? Not to mention that rail is cheaper to operate than buses, has higher capacity, and gets the traffic off the clogged surface streets.
Another point is quality of life. A decent mass transit system is a feature of almost any city of any size, why should LA be any different.
I wonder if any of the contributors to this article have ever ridden the Red Line? Like thousands who do, I can attest to it's utility. This kind of thing gets the public a tangible benefit, that will be around for our great grandchildren to enjoy. Better than pissing the money away on some fatcat's pension fund.
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Aaron 09/24/2010 7:05:00 AM
What these douche's don't understand is that Metro is building a countywide system, this is a very slow process but eventually there will be a very effective grid of subways and light rail lines.
Of course this one subway initially isn't going to have an immediate effect on traffic but the subway and other lines will create new options, a new culture of people being able to get around town efficiently without having to own a car.
And for those politicians complaining about the Westside getting all the money, the Westside is just now getting rail. Long Beach, the South Bay, South Central, Pasadena, East LA etc... all got rail before the WS.
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Brent 09/24/2010 4:44:00 AM
I wonder how many riders the subway will have when gasoline is $15 per gallon.
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Chris 09/24/2010 3:08:00 AM
Perhaps the biggest piece of idiocy is the $9 billion figure. Where does he come up with this figure? The figure is $4 billion, and due to the economy, where construction bids are coming in really low, the assumption that the project will be $5 billion over that figure is so ludicrous that for that reason alone this story should be thrown out. The projected ridership figures are low - if 40,000 people on Wilshire today choose to ride a packed bus that is always late on a gridlocked street, shouldn't more than 80,000 people ride a subway that not only is much faster than riding the current bus, but is faster than driving during rush hour?
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Alan K. Weeks 09/24/2010 2:50:00 AM
I have been following transportation in Los Angeles for over sixty years. I was born here and have seen both the Red and Yellow Car systems abandoned. I am happy to have lived to see rail systems being revived. If rail was such a bad idea it would not have been revived all over the world. Rail critics are noted for being both loud mouthed and angry in their denunciation of rail projects. The L.A. Weekly has done a great diservice to turn over their media to these anti rail activists. The Highway Lobby has looted and hoarded most all of the public funds for highways, freeways and bridges during the last seventy five years. I don't see anyone using the argument that these projects will not relive traffic. Actually they don't releave traffic they increase it. We need both highways, railroads and rail Rapid Transit. We need a choice. There is no denieing that Rail Rapid saves both time and money.
Why not point out the positive aspects of rail.?
The only way to relieve congestion is to have a gasoline shortage.
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Cara 09/24/2010 1:38:00 AM
I'm surprised no one is mentioning the benefit of reduction of congestion based on what it would be without the subway. Specifically, the report says an unnoticeable 1% reduction from current congestion. But we all know that population growth means the traffic (without subway) will get worse. If this is a 1% reduction from current congestion, then it appears to be a much larger reduction from potential congestion that will occur without the subway.
How is that not reduced congestion?
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Sam Sinistre 09/23/2010 11:48:00 PM
Krissake what a hack job. Extremely poor logic (duh, ever seen traffic in subway-filled NYC?), one sided quotes, screamingly obvious political bias. Sometimes the New Times (oops, I mean "LA Weekly") has done a more subtle job of scumming its adversaries in the service of its faux populism, but this one is weaker than most. What a joke. No shit - the traffic will remain because opportunistic drivers will fill the void left by transit riders. The Subway to westside has the best "bang for buck" of any system, and it has the greatest system-wide impact of any project; but suburban "leaders" want their share of the pie, and don't care if they have to lie to do it. Duh. Any idiot knows that taking a subway all around So.Cal. will be faster than driving. C'mon guys, make your hack propaganda a little more digestible next time.
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Lawrence 09/23/2010 11:38:00 PM
The L.A Weekly proves again how out of touch and clueless they are. This article is such a joke. The purpose of public transit is to offer an ALTERNATIVE to driving not to make the roads clear for more drivers. Many people would love to ditch their car altogether and have another option for navigating this city and the subway and other planned Measure R projects are exactly what we need.
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Brian 09/23/2010 11:18:00 PM
What no one here seems to be talking about and what Southern California seem to take for granted is the mass transit would allow couples in the region to do the unthinkable: have only one car. My wife commutes from South Pasadena to Wilshire well past the terminus of the purple line. While my argument seems self-serving, the point here is options and increased cost to middle class workers and the erosion of quality of life due to sitting in traffic not by choice. I am currently a Gold Line Commuter who leaves his car at work since a car is required for my job. On the occasion I do drive home, there is traffic. But again I have the choice because of the Gold Line to avoid the traffic during my commute, which saves time. I hate to use the excuse that since some other cities have this Los Angeles should have it too, but I am going to anyway.
The two things that keep L.A. from being a cosmopolitan city on the scale of London, Paris, Tokyo and New York are a well developed downtown and light rail. The latter holds the ultimate fate to the former and the city becomes less convenient to live in, people may choose not to move or live here. We can't get by on 75 degree weather as the main attraction forever.
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Jack Humphreville 09/23/2010 10:06:00 PM
Between this and the library, you are going to need a body guard and a taster.
A sacred cow makes for good hamburger at certain times.
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Dan 09/23/2010 10:02:00 PM
Well, the real problem is that Southern California roads are so far OVER capacity, that any people you take off the road by way of rail will be almost entirely replaced by others, so "road miles traveled" barely dips at all, even though you have dramatically more people traveling to and from the west side (over roads plus rail) every day, which is a pretty dramatic increase in efficiency.
The crux of the issue right now is that if you want to go to the west side today, you MUST sit in traffic. There isn't any alternative, and a subway solution is wildly more practical than adding road capacity. If you think the subway right-of-way is tricky situation, try to imagine what it would entail to widen the 10 (and the 405) by even a single lane, and what effect it would have on traffic while that was being done.
Besides that, it's sort of disingenuous for the article to imply that Measure R as a whole is strictly rail and bus improvements. It's true, 35% of the revenue is dedicated to sorely needed rail improvements, but 20% is also dedicated to highway improvements, and 15% goes to city governments for local discretionary road and traffic improvements.
Simply looking at the percentage reduction of road-miles-traveled is woefully inadequate to determine what impact any project will have on what's really a remarkably complex congestion problem that's been literally decade in the making, and will probably necessarily be decades in alleviating.
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Will Wright 09/23/2010 9:57:00 PM
Beyond the the primary goal of advancing opportunities for healthy (sustainable) mobility and the secondary goal of advancing opportunities for economic development, there is a tertiary objective for transit investment, which in my opinion is often overshadowed. Transit infrastructure adds opportunities for civility by enabling more diverse populations to come together and interact peacefully on a daily basis. Mass transit, furthermore, enables random encounters with strangers (and friends), which promotes invaluable cultural and intellectual experiences. Transit experience is a catalyst for creative and societal inspiration. It is a necessity for a City of our merit to compete on the global stage.
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Dana Gabbard 09/23/2010 9:50:00 PM
S*I*G*H Years ago the Weekly shilled for the Bus Rider's Union and its biased anti-rail propoganda from the far left. Now it prints libertarian pro-auto propoganda agaianst rail from the far right.
Traffic is not a static situation. Any relief would be unnoticed as latent demand causes induced new users (who otherwise would decide not to drive due to congestion) help refill the roads. And besides who said the purpose of rail tansit is to solve the prooblems of auto congestion? Congestion pricing like they have in London is the answer to crowded roads and the subsidies that create same. Don't hold your breathe for that one--it would be truly visionary and challenge the status quo if a leader promoted pricing for L.A. Moore is an idiot for promoting road capacity instead of pricing.
BTW, all this obscures what a tremendous amount of use this subway would have--much more cost effective than the project the folks in Glendora etc. cry about in the article (its projected ridership, especially past Azusa, is abysmal). The real scandal is who pays for all the busing of supporters, the boosterish blog etc. trying to create the impression of mass support for the Foothill extension project--is it being done with public funds? How about digging in on that one, Weekly?
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Nik 09/23/2010 9:22:00 PM
This is a biased article, whatever your feelings about the subway. There is little to no space in this article given to opposing viewpoints. Moreover, there should be mention of past EIRs for transportation projects that have miscalculated or been wrong about projected ridership numbers.
Also, a little forsight is in order. As oil as gas prices soar because of increased demand (see China) and limited supply, people will be driven to public transit (as they were during the last spike in oil prices). When this happens, we had better have a system in place to handle increased ridership. A subway cannot be built overnight, so we should prepare now.
If the subway is not the answer to this, then an article like this should propose an alternative, as in dedicated buslanes or light rail. Anger at the politics of Metro and City Hall should not obscure the benenfits of the subway project.
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Scott Mercer 09/23/2010 9:19:00 PM
I merely dispute the fact that small decreases in congestion "would not be noticed." In a world where somebody changing the tire on the side of a freeway can cause massive chaos in our traffic, even a small change can have a demonstrable impact. I contend that a decrease in traffic of one percent (or less) WOULD be noticeable.
The Red Line subway carries 140,000 or 150,000 passengers per day. Would you like to add those people to our roads, and/or cram them on to overcrowded buses? What a joke.
The anti-subway people can cram it. If you had your way, you're going to destroy my city with your stubborn "cars good, transit bad" mentality. Not going to let that happen.
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Dave 09/23/2010 9:18:00 PM
The FTA criteria used to evaluate proposals such as the Westside Subway Extension lists 'mobility improvements' as 20% of the scoring mechanism. Relieving vehicular traffic congestion is not the primary objective of building the subway, it is only a part of it, and not even all of the 20%--mobility improvements mean for people, not just cars. Los Angeles has the third highest GDP of any metropolitan area in the world (Tokyo, NYC, Los Angeles, London, Chicago are 1-5). But its transportation system is far behind other world cities. We have already learned that you can't 'road build' your way out of congestion. It's time for alternatives, a worthy, world-class (well...) transit system that befits a City this large and economically robust.
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JRider 09/23/2010 8:58:00 PM
Ok. So the subway won't cure traffic. Big woop.
That never was the point of mass transit. The point of mass transit is to give people a way to get around the traffic. (If you haven't noticed, cities with large metro systems like New York and Tokyo still have bad traffic. The difference is that people have a choice to not sit in it every day.)
The subway will get me from Union Station to UCLA in 25 minutes. Enough said.
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Tornadoes28 09/23/2010 8:52:00 PM
Wow, the LA Weakly is sooooo misinformed and ignorant AS USUAL. The LA Weekly does not understand all aspects. The studies only look at existing traffic but do not take into consideration people who do not currently add to the traffic because they currently decide to "stay home" rather than battle traffic when considering to go places such as Santa Monica's 3rd Street. With a subway, these people would then possibly change their mind since they have an alternative and do not have to deal with traffic. LA Weakly obviously is extremely clueless regarding mass transit in a growing city. But the LA Weakly is clueless 99% of the time so I understand.
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John Ryan 09/23/2010 8:38:00 PM
The subway is an ALTERNATIVE to ever-worsening congestion as the city becomes more dense and the metro region continues to grow. Average freeway speeds in 2030 will be 18 miles per hour (yes, AVERAGE). The Subway to the Sea will whisk passengers from Westwood to Union Station in 25 minutes. You do the math. Disgraceful 'journalism' and another blow the to the 'reputation' of LA Weekly, but unfortunately not unexpected.
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John Ryan 09/23/2010 8:26:00 PM
Let me spell it out for you: the subway is an ALTERNATIVE to ever-worsening congestion as the city gets denser and more populous -- average highway speeds will drop to 18 mph in 2030 - yes, eighteen miles per hour. The subway to the sea will travel from Westwood to Union Station in 25 minutes, yes twenty-five minutes. Do the math for driving time. Disgraceful journalism and another blow to the 'reputation' of LA Weekly, but unfortunately not unexpected.
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Jake 09/23/2010 7:55:00 PM
Dear Commenters,
As much as I appreciate and agree with your strictly qualitative "mass transit good, cars bad" take on things. The ADT and VMT analysis conducted for this project are highly accurate CALCULATIONS. So yes, this article may be flawed, but the underlying fact and point of it remains...the project as advertised does not reflect the on the ground reality.
Enjoy your nice cup of morning rage.
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Joel MaHarry 09/23/2010 7:39:00 PM
Wow, I am astonished that LA Weekly, of all places, would cite Wendell Cox and James Moore as credible authorities. Cox has been bought and paid for by GM and oil companies. Moore has been railing against light rail for 20 years, falsely proclaiming that rail fails wherever it is found (I guess this would be news to the Japanese, British, French, San Francisco, Boston).
Moore says "road capacity is always a good buy," which of course is exactly the thinking that has brought us to our current traffic nightmare.
Both are free-market fanatics whose principle purpose is to preserve the status quo (preserving, in other words, a continual flow of fat commissions to them both). Both insist our current course of action (as jammed as it is) is the correct and only way, consequence be damned. Both freely and regularly lie about rail and alternate forms of transit.
I'm profoundly disappointed to see their craven views repeated in LA Weekly.
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Alek F 09/23/2010 7:38:00 PM
This is one of the most foolish and misleading articles I've ever read. LA Weekly seems to be a biased newspaper (oh, well... like most of the media pretty much). And James Moore - oh boy... where should I start... I've read his narrow-minded articles before, and his views are nothing but car-oriented and anti-transit propagated! Moore needs to get his head out of the sand, and see the reality.
The article is misleading because it does not state the true reason we need a subway. Folks, subway is NOT, and NEVER WAS intended to relieve congestion, but it's there to PROVIDE AN OPTION to people. The congestion will always be there, like any other major city, but subway systems provide a reliable option to commuters. Would you want to spend 1 hour in traffic? Or would you like to spend 25 minutes in a stress-free environment and get on a fast subway train on time? I'm sure, any person with decent common sense would choose the latter. The popularity of the present Red Line has shown how great the subway is; it's used by hundreds of thousands of people! And those who are skeptical - please, take a ride on the Red line, and you will see how full the trains are; during rush-hours it's standing room only. The illustration by Kyle T. Webster is in fact a complete opposite of the reality of Los Angeles subway; the platforms are always crowded, especially at rush-hours.
Mr. Moore, please stop misleading the public!! And dear LA Weekly, please be more objective and stop this car propaganda!
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Sean 09/23/2010 6:56:00 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if Moore and Cox are working very closely with car and petroleum industries to fund and proves these "studies". No matter how many more roads, freeways, or HOV lanes you build there will always be traffic. Do their studies predict people's behavior in the future? We need to start building a better mass transit now and if that means spending 9 billion with early ridership being low- I think its a better gamble than building more eyesore lanes/freeways that divide communities and choke our lungs with pollution. I have not owned a car for over 5 years now- does it have its draw backs? Yes. However, I enjoy riding my bike to work, wheezing past congested streets, and gas stations. I save so much money and I feel good about not supporting the car or petroleum industry. We should all remember that LA was originally developed using trolleys and it was only because of the car industry marketing "freedom" and "luxury" that spawned the car culture we ARE STILL OBSESSED WITH (not to mention the car/oil companies purchasing trolley lines nationwide and systematically dismantling them to replace them with gas powered "motor coaches"). Cars isolate us from other people, pollute, and they are also one of the top causes of accidental death in this country (and for all you hybrid drivers- wake-up you're still using gas and the amount of energy to make one of those cars greatly undoes any benefits of reducing pollution/CO2). Where are our priories? We need to move on!
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tsk 09/23/2010 5:31:00 PM
I, too, find this hard to believe. The Metro systems in DC or London or Paris or Tokyo or Greater NYC don't reduce congestion? If that's true it's only because those Metro systems have existed so long that they have eliminated many would-be drivers all together.
Also, if money is better spent expanding road capacity, where is that going to happen? How would it even be possible to add capacity to Wilshire or Santa Monica? Are you going to tear down homes and businesses?
Buses are traffic. Adding more bus lines that run on existing streets only adds more traffic. Someone should do a study of how buses impact traffic flow. I'm sure the results would be much more damning than this report on measure R.
Finally, while it's true that the first stages of LA's metro rail system were much too expensive and, in certain ways, poorly planned. They were not comprehensive. No one has ever presented a comprehensive plan to improve transportation in LA County. I don't see how that would be possible without building a comprehensive metro system that moves and operates independently of road traffic. If someone can show me that plan, then I'll be happy to change my mind.
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eleanor 09/23/2010 5:13:00 PM
I'm 84 years old, and I don't even expect to see work on the 405 finished in my lifetime. The subway? Never. The prospect of a massive underground project being undertaken in the already choked streets of Santa Monica is frightening, and thankfully, will probably be tied up in red tape for the foreseeable future. It wouldn't do a thing to alleviate our traffic nightmare. Cars would still be the way to get to the stations, parking would be even more of a problem than it is now, and in the end, it would always be more convenient to get into that vehicle parked in the driveway and drive to the desired destination. And by the way, unless the destination is close to a station, then what? Walk? Take a taxi? Get real all you pie-in-the-sky planners. I'll bet that if and when that money pit project is finished, you (or more likely, your grandchildren) will still be deciding whether to trade in the car for next year's model, or keep it for another year.
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RobE 09/23/2010 3:18:00 PM
The reason more people don't use mass transit in SoCal is because it's a joke. The buses are so slow and infrequent that it practically forces people into cars. Plus the MTA is so corrupt and disorganized that the first thing Villaraigosa should have done is fire everyone involved with it and start all over again.
Driving sucks. And anyone who has ridden the subway system in Tokyo, for example, would look at you crosseyed if you tried to suggest that trains don't reduce traffic congestion (not that Tokyo roadways aren't congested, but those two lanes a side freeways don't help and things would be orders of magnitude worse without subways). If L.A. had a Tokyo style subway system and enough security to staff it then it would indeed greatly reduce roadway traffic. Who wouldn't rather read or just relax on a train to your destination rather than staring into the headlights and tail lights of cars going 15mph (if you're lucky) on the freeway during rush hour? No need for auto insurance or car maintenance, pollution would be reduced, and more walking to and from stations would be good for reducing the bulging waistlines of the American public.
And if populations are projected to grow in SoCal, that means that roadways are going to be filled before new ones finish construction anyway, making the whole thing a hamster wheel of an exercise. So it's time for an alternative to building more ugly roadways with their maintenance demands, the law enforcement costs associated with them and the pollution they generate. And, right now, subways are the most viable solution as long as government is serious about building extensive networks rather than the half assed mass transit L.A. and OC have at the moment.
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RobuĊ 09/23/2010 8:09:00 AM
To any critic of the subway's capacity to relieve traffic: if you rode the subway you wouldn't have to deal with traffic anyway!
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Walter Moore 09/23/2010 8:08:00 AM
The alternative, on which Measure R funds can be spent, is bus rapid transit.
This would create jobs immediately and get traffic moving, county-wide, years before the nine-mile "Subway to the Sea" would open. Here's what we need to do:
1. Buy or use eminent domain to buy properties every few blocks along major traffic arteries.
2. Build underground parking facilities at those sites, with nice parks on top.
3. When they are complete, ban on-street parking along those streets, and use the "new lane" -- previously used only for parking -- for buses only.
4. Buy many, many buses, so wherever you are, another bus will show up in five or ten minutes.
Here's my extremely low-tech video on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgfpqEOUKqU
Walter Moore
http://WalterMooreSays.com
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elizabeth 09/23/2010 8:03:00 AM
I don't know what world Cox is studying but I can name quite a few cities I have personally been to and or lived in where light rail is a part of daily life and has significantly decreased traffic: Boston, New York (not just Manhatten), London, Copenhagen, Moscow, and San Francisco (proper). The issue here is that simply building a light rail isn't going to change Angelino's obsession with their cars. Public transit needs to be cheaper than driving, generally convenient, reliable, and available. The city needs to promote tax incentives for individuals who use mass transit and for companies who subsidize their employees for using mass transit. Personally I think the biggest return in quality of life would be having consistent buses or shuttles running along routes that are frequented by drunk drivers. Current rail service sould be e3xtended on weekend high traffic hours for party goers. Also having point to point or express transit from say downtown los angeles directly to the Santa Monica Pier and other popular areas would be very helpful and would generate funds from tourism. The money could also be invested in more park and rides within the city and areas like Pasadena, Downtown, Culver City, and Santa Monica with express buses. There is open land in these areas and the money could purchase this land, develope it (jobs and practical developement) and provide the bus lines.